What sorts of things do players want out of Untold?

I was extrememly offended by what you said and the way you said it. Its sexist. And while your argument is valid, you are lacking in one area. Your argument suggests that humans respond to robots that resemble humans. Problem: Kliks do not resemble humans in any way. They are not bipedal, some have multipte arms, some do not even have legs! So to suggest that its possible to make a Klik female to resemble humans is a bad argument in this case. If, in Ben's argument, the robots were said Protocol droids from Star Wars, where they did essentially resemble humans, then you could argue that "making them female" might make humans respond better to them. Fine, I still hate the idea, I still find it sexist, and I think you would change the concept of the game as a whole if you did that.

Secondly, while you can say that Kliks can still be genderless while some have female chassis, in my opinion is not possible. If you put a female aspect to anything, you are automatically making the assumption that there is a distinction between male and female. This argument is also from my sister. When I asked her opinion about this concept, she hated it. She points out that Metroid (one of the greatest robot video games ever) is a female robot. But looking at her, you can't tell. If you make a robot look feminine, then you are assigning it a gender. And if that is the case, then the artwork for the "male" Klik's needs to be altered.

Now, since I knew this would turn into a debate, I did gather some opinions from my sister and a friend of her's who does game. I showed them the artwork for the Kliks. They loved it. Then I asked their opinion on giving them more feminine attributes (not those cards particularly, but the Kliks in general). Both of them said that if they saw some of those robots with "female attributes", then they would probably laugh as they walked away. They would not look at a game that suggested female robots. Robots are genderless and they hated the idea of changing that. This is just their opinion, which mirrors my own. Some people may be ok with that, most people will not. Now, you can have a female Klik (think Metroid who is female but doesn't look female)...I could use Buzzsaw's artwork and give it a feminine name...and even a feminine voice. But to change the outward appearance of the Klik's themselves automatically changes whether they are gender neutral or not.

The problem with the idea of gender-specific Klik (I'm going to say "specific" since applying a gender-specific chassis applies a specific gender) as diplomats presents problems. What if a cultural finds women in power offensive? Or vice versa.

And yes, gender specific robots are popular in a variety of genres. Robert Heinlein is popular for his "sex-bots" (Ashy, edit this if you want, but keep in mind that this is something that will inevitably be encountered) in his scifi works. This goes back to the suggestion made by our dear Lumberklik about cat girls. While his suggestion may be innocent in and of itself, that does not mean that everyone will perceive it that way. People who are unfamiliar with this game (and the scifi/fantasy/genre itself, as we have several people who are completely new to this scene) are going to have two reactions: 1.) Weird and stupid 2.)Weird and disgusting. If it is the first reaction, we've possibly lost a potential player/customer. If it is the second, we've not only lost the customer, but the customers children/family/etc. Once again, there is something of a stigma attached to this suggestion, and it should be discarded out right.

I was extrememly offended by what you said and the way you said it. Its sexist.

You are free to believe as you wish. I, for one, am in favor of the concept - I feel that it is an interesting trope to hang plots upon. If you take my "this could make for good story" judgment as an out-and-out advocation of the basis of the story plot, you'll probably never want to speak to me again after the horror adventure I finished writing last Thursday gets published due to fear that I kidnap children. I personally do not see it in the way that you do and think the idea is an interesting one. In fact, regardless of what happens with the "official" Klik I believe this conversation has given me a good adventure lead for my players in the future in running a concept pulled from "Terminator Salvation" by having Klik infiltrators amongst the High-bred.

By the way, Samus Aran is not a robot - she's a woman in a battle suit - and my idea never required any need to "masculinize" or "feminize" every Klik in existence, as the concept dealt with a very specific sub-model of Klik diplomats. Regardless, I realize this is an unfortunate problem of perceived ideologies at an impasse and will end the conversation here.

Okay, now to Ben...

What if a cultural finds women in power offensive? Or vice versa.

Then you send the Klik diplomat with the alternative humanoid gender characteristics, or you send one of each (ala the city of 01 in the Animatrix) everywhere to cover the bases. In fact, you could even have them actually be binary Klik - they are two bodies sharing one consciousness - to really mess with people who dig deeper than "there's a man-bot and a girl-bot sent to negotiate."

Once again, there is something of a stigma attached to this suggestion, and it should be discarded out right.

I really do hate discarding any idea outright - that's actually why I specifically suggested a way for Lumberklik to create his catgirls using the cards as they exist by making them humanoid-feline-blended L'na. That being said, if this concept does fall by the wayside then it's entirely possible to input them into a story anyways by using "faux skin facade" ideas and simply borrowing the Race Cards from the creatures they're built to imitate. That way they're also available as infiltrators if needs require, as mentioned above. Alternatively, one could just apply a regular Klik Race Card and ignore the portrait in the same way I've been encouraging my Players to do - the portrait's an idea, not scripture - and make it work that way.

So, if Ashy decides to avoid opening what appears to be a "can of worms" in the official setting there is still the ability to fold it into the wider scope of play.

In an individuals own game, they can do and should do whatever they wish.

But this is something of a submission thread. Any idea posted here, for all the wonderful world to read, can just as easily drive away people and players as making the same suggestion canon. And inevitably, we will have the person who develops the "Crotch Cannon" or the "Boob bomb" and posting them on here IF we allow this idea to become cannon.

It is a harsh reality but a reality nonetheless. So, could Lumberklik employ this idea in his game at home? Ofcourse he can. And it's wonderful that Untold is flexible enough to allow for it. But for canonical purposes, ideas like this may be suggested but ultimately discarded in favor of keeping the game as family friendly as possible. And it's not just kids we're talking about here. Several people on these forums or who play this game are believers of certain faiths, and may find this idea which can be taken to crude and disgusting extremes offensive. Also, we need to consider the fact that one person may suggest it, and others may not like it, and IF it becomes canon, the players who don't like might possibly stop playing/supporting the game.

But one cannot deny a stigma attached to the "genderized" robot. And once again, at a such a crucial moment in the development of Untold, with all the pitches at families, children, etc., ANY stigma could be the death blow of the game.

I mean no offense to the person who suggested the idea. However, this idea could be potentially lethal for our game. It only takes one disgruntled parent/guardian, or one sarcastic review of the game, to deal a critical blow to the game. And our VIT will only take so much before it begins to cut into our Swap Buffer.

I am not opposed to anyone employing any concept they want in their game. If you want to genderize Kliks in your game, fine. But, card art was the original suggestion and that is my opposition and my reasoning has been previously stated. And, as you have said, and as I tell people repeatedly, the artwork is just a representation. You can make your character whatever you want. If I want to play a female Churl with large boobs and is half naked, I will darn well play her that way. If I want her to be sexual in nature (and my GM and companions allow it), then I will. But that is a discussion for GM and players. However, will I see her on a card. Not in this lifetime. This game suggests being family friendly. You can conceivable draw cat girls in a non sexual manner (I for one love the idea of animal/human highbreds of all animal types). And I am not opposed to presenting a female oriented Klik in a game. Do I want to see artwork of female Kliks on cards? No. If that happens, then I would like to see some more masculine looking male oriented Kliks. Buzzsaw resembles the fat balding man that grosses me out and Roller is too much of the computer nerd with glasses. Give me a real masculine, manly Klik. Do I really want to see that? Definitely not. I love Buzzsaw the way he is. He is not human in nature, and therefore has no gender. And I want to keep it that way. I do not want to see Klik with boobs on artwork. While you are not actually seeing anything but the semblance of a female form, it is too much like showing too much cleavage for humanoids. It turns something that is not sexual into something that is. That is the way I view it. Does this mean that a game could not have female and male Kliks? No. It just means that you have to use that imagination of yours to describe what he/she looks like.

As far as your game, you'd be surprised what I enjoy. I can be considered quite racy and questionable and even grossly disturbing in some situations. (The book I'm reading now has a car that eats vampiric children and I thought it was funny. Does everyone, definitely not) Ben has to edit me sometimes, and I have to try to remember what situation I am in before I say or do something that might offend the group I'm with. This is a similar situation. While some games might allow some things to appear sexual in nature, Untold does not. Ashy prides himself on the artwork being something he is not ashamed to show his kids. And in this instance, Ben is right. Some people have beliefs that allow them to play Untold right now because of its lack of sexuality. If we start introducing aspects that will inadvertantly become questionable in nature, then you will be changing the way those people view this game. The one thing that everyone needs to remember, is that while you might like the idea, and while you might let your child watch that or look at that, not everyone feels that way. I do not have kids, I do not want kids, but that does not mean that I feel it is appropriate for kids to be allowed to watch and read things that are too questionable in nature.

Several people on these forums or who play this game are believers of certain faiths, and may find this idea which can be taken to crude and disgusting extremes offensive.

In my own opinion, the rotary saw of the iconic Klik Tripod can be taken to crude and disgusting extremes as it bloodily dismembers living creatures who may or may not be innocent bystanders - and if we start rejecting things based on how they COULD be used we may as well stop now because EVERYTHING can be turned into something offensive when looked at it from a seeking-to-be-offended point of view. I honestly find it incredibly strange that horrific violence is somehow an "accepted" core concept, while something that simply creates gender dimorphism - not sex, not even the suggestion of sex, but indeed just the use of something that might be interpreted in a way that might allow for the possibility of gender-affected interactions which could, if approved by individual GMs, lead to sexual interactions - is outside the bounds of consideration.

For what it's worth, my envisioning of the "Klik diplomat" is essentially a metal-skinned version of the various Actroid models such as Repliee Q1/R1 - and no, Repliee R1 is not intended to have any "sexual connotations" as it is built to resemble a five-year old.

I, for what it's worth, will defer to the decision of Ashy and the other Wandering Men on this. Ashy himself is a man of faith and family, besides being the creative director of the game, and I believe he can make the judgment call himself as to whether such a thing is really as inherently unacceptable as you would imply. I just do not think there's any reason why this particular idea is any more or less "capable of degeneration into the taboo" than proto-animals with female personalities (who could CONCEIVABLY form intimate relationships with other races), brutal murder, hellish sadomasochistic horrors from beyond the grave, or any of the other "could be seen as questionable" aspects of the game as it already exists.

But we'll see what he says.

The point I am simply trying to make is that certain things have certain stigmas that will inevitably drive away players. This is something that has a stigma attached to it, and if instituted, would inevitably lead to players being driven away. This thread is "What sorts of things do players want out of Untold?", and people have responded. It is only fair that if someone suggests something they want for Untold, but other players don't, that the players in opposition voice their concerns. Catgirls, LARP's, Gender-specific Klik are all things that I DON'T want out of Untold, because I love Untold because it DOESN'T have these and a great many other things. And if these things, that I do not like, were instituted as canon, I would no longer play Untold because I don't like them. And I understand that my game would not have to include these things, but inevitably, someone who try to bring them into my game and I would have to tell them no. By keeping them non-canonical, then the players who want them can have them, and the players who don't want them don't have to even see them.

My problem with your argument is that you are suggesting human looking Kliks (therefore allowing for sexual characterisitcs). That, to me, is a huge problem as Kliks in general do not resemble humans in any way. I suggested a bipedal Klik a while back and was shot down because Kliks are specifically tripod or roller in nature. Also, I clicked on link above and while informative, did not tell me what R1/Q1 and such were. So I typed it in and did a search. The first 3 sites it took me too I clicked on. Each one took me to a section which somewhere on it, said "Explicit Content". Then each proceeded to explain how it might not be appropriate for children and how I can view the material as long as I'm over 18. And I'm not suggesting that "female" shaped Kliks are sexual in nature. I am suggesting that if you need to have female shaped Kliks, then I think that there is a problem. Sarge is a female and even she doesn't resemble a female due to her nature. So if Kliks are genderless, why do they need to have "female" shaped counterparts? Even some of the humans who are a specific gender do not show that they have said gender.

I do agree with the argument that the Klik's weapons can be used for gross and mass destruction. However, will I see a card with said carnage on it? No. Why? Because its not appropriate. Do I enjoy movies like Saw? No. I think they are gross and disgusting and the fact that they put them in the horror genre with things like Rear Window and A Haunting (the original) is insulting. But that's simply the way that people take things. So I do understand where you are coming from in that area. Do you understand where I come from? Obviously not. You can make your Klik female without adding a female shape (see Jetsons Rosie...the only thing that makes her female is her voice and her apron...she's completely flat chested and has no shape). Is it necessary to add a female shape to do it? Not at all...you are wanting to put a gender on something that has no gender...and for what purpose? To allow her to appeal to the humanoids? Maybe they'd respond to a female shaped Klik better than a male one? It feels like you are objectifying women in that situation. It may not be your purpose but that is how it sounds. It would be like hiring a well shaped female assistant in your office because the other workers respond better to her than they do the guy you wanted to hire. It is then turned into the fact that sex is a factor in all things human and I do not want to encounter that in this game.

I would try to present a meaningful argument here that presenting situations that turn sexism into a detrimental trait (such as the very thing you seem to keep believing I am suggesting - that "female" Klik exist to do little more than seduce or attract male Apoc, and not simply get them to relax because their ambassadorial counterparts are not completely alien) would in fact serve as a paean against sexism and not an encouragement for it, but y'know what? I really don't see the purpose of having this discussion anymore. I don't like being shouted down with accusations of sexism and deviancy because I think something could be potentially neat, especially because YOU apparently just can't see it any other way. I've presented my reasoning and my position, and anything further will simply be restating it - so I'm going to step away from this conversation and avoid putting any more negativism on this thread. Whatever you think about how to best sell this game and make it a success, this consistent argumentative negativism I get whenever I try to present constructive suggestions doesn't seem to be a help to anybody. I can only imagine what a newcomer to the site who comes on and reads an innocent idea getting blasted with two full pages of "I can't BELIEVE you'd suggest that" would conceive of this community and its openness to new players with new ideas.

Every time I try to lead off other peoples' comments and suggestions about how to make what they might want work, the two of you always seem to post pages of what seems to me to be rather hostile criticism of my attempts to market and sell this game so it can be a success. Why? Why can't you just go "I don't agree with you, and would like to make my reasoning known, but I will afterwards leave it at that and defer to the developers on this" like I am attempting to do to defuse a very confrontational situation? Why insult me and brand me with negative labels for simply trying to riff off someone's idea (that seemed favorably received by Ashy) and come up with a logical way to lever it into the game? You did nearly the same thing on my PROMOTIONAL POST for the front page, basically turning what I was hoping to be decent marketing material into something I can't post around to anybody because the comments are filled with very blunt criticism of Untold's enjoyability as a game. I just don't get it. Did I *do* something to you two?

Regardless, as I said - I'm done here. I don't agree with you, I have made my reasons known, and now I will leave this to the people who make the decisions.

EDIT - Oh, and for the record... this was on Google Image Search's very first page for "Repliee R1." Obviously, no porn involved. Because it's an android of a five-year-old. There you go. You're welcome.

The same problem everyone has on here. They take ANY criticism whatsoever as an attack on their person.

People need to realize that just because they have what they think is a glorious idea for Untold, this doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with them.

You feel like we're attacking you? Well, we were having a discussion. You were the one who just happened to be responding. And honestly, I find you a bit hypocritical claiming that we're attacking your ideas. This thread is "What do players want out of Untold?" So, we're telling you what we want and what we don't want. So what? Don't take it PERSONALLY. Do you know HOW many COUNTLESS ideas Dovebear and I posted on this forum a year ago that got SHOT DOWN by ASHY before we even had a chance to develop them. He didn't like them, and so they DIDN'T happen, no matter how badly we wanted them.

What it boils down to is that people have differing opinions and views, and what they want from this game. And everyone who puts an idea out there should expect some level of criticism from the other people on this forum. And they should try to take that criticism in stride with the knowledge that it is not an attack on their person, by rather a disagreement with a particular idea that is posted.

And when did we slap you with negative labels?

I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt, I truly am. But it is something you will have to live with, in any venue or forum. People will not like everything you manage to conceive. We did exactly what you accused of not doing. We stated we didn't agree with you, and we gave our opinions.

And I don't agree with you. Argument is over. I am not calling you anything. I'm simply stating that your "comments" are coming across as sexist when thinking that a female shaped robot would make "humans" feel more comfortable. If you had said that a more human robot would make the humans feel more comfortable, then I would have whole-heartedly agreed. And in that instance, there would be no way of getting around making male and female counterparts. But in that instance you would have to introduce a whole new sub-race, which is possible and may actually happen. But to take the current sub-races of Kliks and add female parts to them is offensive to me. And if you didn't notice, when it was first suggested, the only comment I made was one that would suggest to Ashy that he may want to think carefully about doing that because I'm not sure how great of an idea it is. But then a discussion ensued where comments were made about female shaped Kliks making humans feel more comfortable. It offended me and I stated as such. I feel I have good arguments against creating female shapes as is. But if the Great Machine decides he wants to creat "ambassadors" to Apoc Earth to deal with the humanoids, then it may actually need to create a bipedal race that has male and female counterparts to accomodate both human sexes.

Also, I'm not saying all bipedal robots are sex machines. Quite the contrary, I used to love a show called Silver Spoons...probably not a great example, but it proves your point. But when I typed in Q1/R1 as you had suggested (I did not use Google Search and that may have been the problem), then it brought up questionable sites for me to view. Honestly, I was actually interested in what you were trying to show me, but the original link was not helpful to me so I tried looking for it on my own.

As far as having a problem with you, I don't. Quite the contrary, I actually like most of what you have to say. You usually find the right way to say something I'm trying to get across to someone or address it before I can say anything and the only thing I can do is second what you said. This has to be one of the only threads I have been on where I did not agree with what you said. That may be due to how you said it or it may have to due with the actual concept. You may not be meaning to offend, but the way you are talking, then yes, I don't like the idea. And the argument in your article was more meant for them doing something with the battle portion of the game. Beyond that, I actually thought your article was good. But if you come to this website with the intention of investigating the battle portion of this game, and you are someone like me, you will be very disappointed. And that is partially due to the card/race options as well as the organization of the website. So, in truth, I've never had an issue with you. I still don't. I just don't agree with what you are saying on this topic. I am not attacking you personally, I'm arguing against the creation of female shaped Kliks. And to be honest, this argument could go on forever. But I have no intentions of being a part of it. I'm done.

I'm officially invoking Rule 2, here folks. After reading over the thread, I think MHM's original intent was not taken in the way it was intended. No offense was meant, it was merely a suggestion.

Let's leave it at that; don't make me lock the thread.