What sorts of things do players want out of Untold?

I'm often the GM for the games I'm in, so I know how you feel.

At this point, I don't know what I would want from a player-perspective -- and that is a good thing. If Untold were like 'other games' then I would know, but the more I learn the more differences Untold offers. Until I get my hands on product and play around with it, I won't have a better feel about what I would want from either a GM- or player-perspective.

I remember thinking a few weeks ago "DnD 4e could have gone with a card-model for everything now on a character sheet." But while that may be true, there is much more to Untold that that, given the effects of Swapping and Downgrading, for example. As a software-geek, the 'interaction effects' at a micro-level (between Powers) and at a macro-level (between rules-set features) of this game demonstrate a great deal of potential.

You're TOTALLY getting Untold, Bob and that makes us REALLY happy! We'll be looking forward to your stellar insights from the GM (and possibly player) perspective! :D

I'm starting to develop the urge to do an "Untold Guide"; not so much a how to play (the Primer is for that), but something to describe how to understand the unique features of game-play and character-design. I'm just getting started in the game though, so if one of the playtesters wants to take a stab at it first, I say go for it.

You and I REALLY need to chat, Bob!!!

Yes, we do. The wife and I are seriously considering Imagicon, and you have my home email. :)

Awesome! Yes, I do - sent you a message there. :)

I think that you should not rule out how popular background source books can be. White Wolfs Mechanics were OK but gamers would obsessively buy the books for the fluff(I bought every Aberrant source book because the fluff was so interesting. Never played it though) There are a lot of ways you can market this. i would definitely link Printed adventures or source books with cards of some sort. Perhaps unique cards for some new minions and powers that are only in the adventure. because this is a RPG, I do not think the nerd rage concerning the limited availability(only through buying the adventure or source book) would not be quite limited. I certainly would not mind getting unique cards only by buying the book. I do not see Untold as a collectible game. Customizable yes, but not collectible.

Yea, it was never our intention to create a collectible (by default) game. While we may enhance the collect-ability factor of some of the cards (say if we did an "all Brom" art version of the L'na or something) we do not want to "devolve" the game into just another CCG that can be played as an RPG. We're planning, however, to have Adventure decks that have cards in them that correspond to the adventure and are the only place (or are one of the few places) where you can get those cards. The Bad Beginnings - Alpha is an example of this. There will be more like that in the future, too.

That begs the question, however, *IF* we were to produce books, what would you guys like? Would a POD version (like something from Lulu.com) work, or would it have to be a traditional printer?

I never tried POD books before. I know that personally i am willing to pay more for colour. The background is one of the main things that attracted me to the game and I would pay to know more!

Cool! Good info to know, suren! So what sort of stuff would you like to know more about?

I have the Diaspora RPG in hardcover from Lulu, and it is fine. Very good paper, black-and-white art, good quality binding. I have heard rumors that softcovers are a bit more problematic, and I don't know much about color, though some POD color books I have seen (Squadron Strike rulebook) have that printed-on-a-color-printer effect, where small mis-registrations of color components occur, and where black is sometimes not black, but dark purple.

Reaching out to industry-friendly RPG folks (Fred Hick and Rob Donahue of Evil Hat, and Brad Murray of VSCA) might be useful, as they have both Lulu and game-publishing experience.

Color is critical for Untold books, because of the awesome artwork.

Yea, I agree, Bob - if we did anything, it would definitely be color. :) Thanks for the info and names - excellent stuff! :D

He suggested character cards that are blank on the front - the statistics remain the same but then he (or any other player with an artistic streak) could draw their vision of that character.

Actually, with our Race Card packs, we've already done that. Each Race Card has a different image on it (so in the L'na Dawns and Twilights Race Pack, for instance, all the Twilights inside are different, as are all the Dawns.) Also, the flip side of the QRC (Quick Reference Cards) have the Deck Listing, which is really handy for putting a character back together and for having a "quick list" of Powers your Character has at their disposal.

However, I could see the need for this and I've actually seen a need for just a pack of QRC's personally, so I'll see what I can do about making something like this happen. :)

Also, please tell your artist pal to draw his/her version of the characters anyway and upload them here - we'd love to see them and you never know, one of them just might become an official Untold card! :D

Just Curious. Are the race cards mechanically/stat wise the exact same, just different art on the front, or are the stats/mechanics different for each card.

seen a need for just a pack of QRC's

A couple of thoughts:

• One word: lamination. Yes, this will increase the cost per card (significantly), but allows wet-erase (overhead) markers to be used; right now only dry-erase can be safely used, which has an annoying tendency to "vanish" at awkward moments.
• Add a character information side to the reverse. I was thinking ID-card style, with a place for a picture and then character info (location, org/tribe, height/weight, etc.)

Something I would like to see eventually, is the ability to go to the Untold website and "design your own card", then have a batch of them printed and shipped to me. As a GM, I want the ability to create 'custom' minions and possibly local-campaign-specific powers. And like several of the "Demotivational" poster web-sites, particularly good designs could be 'licensed' by WMS, and added to the store for sale to other customers.

What I don't want, or ever expect to see, is the ability to download a template to print my own -- while that would allow me to create proxies easily, it would also facilitate 'cloning' of existing cards, which would adversely impact WMS. :)

Mechanically, all the Twilights are the same - the only difference is the image. We did this to provide an "instant character image"; you simply pick the image that you like the best and that becomes your Character! :) The same goes for all the Dawns - mechanically they are the same, only the image is different, etc.

Yea, lamination is a solidly good idea; something that we are already looking into, in fact. :)

Absolutely, Bob! This is already in our 5 year business model and plan, in fact! Not only will you be able to design your own card, but your own custom deck! :)

Absolutely, Bob! This is already in our 5 year business model and plan, in fact! Not only will you be able to design your own card, but your own custom deck! :)
Now I'm tingly all over. In a good way. :)

woot woot!! :)

I think we should definitely have some sort of PDF doc.(s) that has background info for various settings, adventures, etc. However, I don't think we should have some kind of book or anything. If players want to print something out, let them do it. In the end, it will save both the player and the company money to release PDF's instead of books. I know Catalyst Games likes their PDF's. They generally charge $2-3 per PDF and the files are the sizes of most gaming books.

Yup, I agree - which is why we added all the basic setting info in the front of Bad Beginnings. I think that we'll continue with this as we move ahead. Please let me know what specific sorts of things you'd like to see added into a pdf... Race info? Ecologies? Fiction - what? :)

Thanks!

Advantages of dead-tree books:

• Not everyone uses the Internet. No, really. For example, Burning Wheel has sold 7000 copies of its main RPG rulebook, but only 1,971 folks are signed up for their forum. Having 'required' items as internet-only can adversely impact the perception of the game.
• Some folks will only access Untold via their FLGS, so having things for FLGSs to sell is always good.
• Dead-tree books don't crash, go down, or have limited access in bizarre places.

Advantages of electronic books (web/PDF):

• Accessible by a wide-variety (and getting wider) of devices.
• Easier to edit and keep current.
• Live cross-links.
• PDFs can become dead-tree books via self-printing and POD services.

Yup, we're well aware of all those advantages and disadvantages, believe me - we ran the numbers six ways to Sunday, trying to make things happen the best way we could for Untold. We're totally cool with getting into FLGS and we need the fans (i.e. you guys) to head to their FLGS and start demanding Untold! Then tell them to contact us - we WANT to be in your local gaming stores, but we've got to work from the ground up. Sadly, we don't have the budgets of the "big boys"...yet. :P

I've already printed a stack of the 9 per page QRCs to cut up and hand out and those work perfectly. The "blank card" request was for no art on the front of the card, just white space, so that the player could sketch their own vision of a Churl or Roller or whatever race.

Right, so what I was suggesting was a pack of QRC's, laminated on the front maybe and with space on the back to draw and put in other Character info (i.e. height, weight, tribe, etc...)

Actually guys, i am a bit disappointed that they are just different pix on the same card type. The product descriptions such as "Nothing less than 17 new L'na core race cards - everything from winged defenders to mysterious spider-snake mentalists!" and all of the fluff in the Personalities section had me believing that they had different game mechanics on each card. In the long run I am ok with it. I can use them as NPC portraits but I think a lot of people may think that they got taken. I think you should make it clear that they are just different art so people can make an informed choice.
However The concept of custom NPCs and monsters Is a stroke of genius !!!! HUGE!! This could make this game huge!
Very excited about this!

I actually agree with you there. I think we should also offer special character decks (which I believe are in the works) that have different stats from their race cards. I.e., I believe the typical L'na Twilight is 1/1/1. I would like to see Shadow have something like 3/3/2 but with a higher UP cost. Grimjaw should have a solid 4/4/4 across the board but with a way higher UP cost.