Well-explained, and very informative.

Impressive article. However, I do find some fault with it on two points, and for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate, I would like to discuss them. I would like to stress that this is not intended to offer any personal offense to our esteemed MHM, just a differing opinion. And once again, if any of this gets blown out of proportion, I stress, this is just my opinion.

My first problem comes with the CCG portion of the article. I disagree that CCG players will like or even moderately enjoy Untold Battle for two reasons. While many players, me being one, does not like "blind" packaging, that is only one strength against several weaknesses. My major issue with Untold Battle is two fold: 1.) The "Open Setting" of Untold lacks an amount of cohesiveness. Sure, the Klik don't like the L'na, but why? Why are Churls and Apoc Highbred fighting? While an "open setting" may be beneficial for the RPG side of things, it really only confuses the CCG side. With the exception of MtG, many card games are based off of specific settings. L5R is a popular card game based around story telling (an element we claim to have). L5R holds several large tournaments across the World that allow players to influence the events in the empire of Rokugan (L5R's setting). Stories are published to show how things unfold in the fiction, and special cards are even printed for people to use. L5R has a rich history and background, with weekly fictions provided to allow players a more detailed look into that setting. So, when I play Scorpion, I know what kind people Scorpions are. I know why Scorpions don't like the Crane Clan, or the Crab Clan. The setting also helps me understand the playstyle of the Scorpion Clan. Which leads to my next point: 2.) Untold Battle lacks a measure of strategic complexity. While Untold strives for simplicity in the belief that it enhances the gaming experience, CCG's are built on the exact opposite principle. A simple strategy is often easily unraveled. For example, I will take a CCG I am currently playing: Legend of the Five Rings (L5R). L5R offers a variety of ways to win: Military Victory (eliminating an opponents provinces and therefore preventing them from building armies), Honor Victory (Obtaining a Family Honor of 40, and therefore becoming to honorable of a person to attack), Dishonor Victory/Loss (When a player's family honor drops to -20, and therefore to dishonorable to live), and Enlightenment (Putting all 5 elemental rings into play). The different strategic styles are nearly endless, and while each of the 9 clans have a few dominating arch types, the combinations of various styles are almost equally endless. For example, I play Scorpion Clan, a clan of ninja and courtiers that spread lies and perform assassinations to prevent the other clans of the Emerald Empire from threatening the Empress. Scorpion cards are built with the style in mind. My decks are often employ complicated strategies, making it more difficult for my opponent to win. I have a deck for Dishonor Victory, which allows me to whittle away at my opponents honor and assume almost complete control over the game. I never need attack with this deck. Conversely, my Ninja deck is very aggressive, but equally controlling, allowing me to assassinate my opponents characters and discard his cards to prevent their use. I understand that powers and such can be added to Untold Battle, the overall Battle Format lacks complexity. The two lines of minions or characters is so simplistic, it almost hurts. There is no need for tactics. Simply move them forward or backwards. However, this is a problem. The two lines offer really no challenge. I also disagree that there are not "killer cards". A properly built character, with a focus of radial or conal damaging powers could easily eliminate a handful of minions. What many people complain about with CCG's are the killer combos, but thats why several people love CCG's as well, the killer Combos is what makes the game fun.

I also disagree with your opinion of wargaming with Untold. For wargamers to enjoy this game would take a lot of work. Untold lacks major tactical components to make a war game possible. Wargaming is half building your unit and half deploying them. Once again, I will refer to a game I play: Battletech. I take careful consideration when I build units. I look at weapons, heat build up, ammo, armor, etc. But when I actually play, I also take care of how I place and move my units. Maybe I would like to perform a flanking manuever. Then I need to properly place my faster units to actually physically flank my opponent. Do I want to set up a "Hammer And Anvil"? Then I need to make sure my slower, heavier units are in place, and my faster units push my enemy in the right direction. True, Untold does allow for individual characters, or even armies to be built quickly. However, Untold Battle does not support advanced tactics, and it would fall to the players to develop homebrew rules to compensate, which can lead to problems since a rules lawyer will want to look directly at a rulebook to resolve disputes.

So, why am I still here? Well, simply put, I like Untold. I like the setting ok, but I don't love it. I like the card based playstyle, but I feel that we are running into several problems as many card abilities are not explained clearly. Is this game perfect? No, far from it. It needs a lot of work. However, it has the potential to be a great game. Is Untold revolutionary? Well, we just had this discussion. A month ago, I would have said yes, it is. However, I no longer feel this way. I feel Untold is more reactionary. The creators in their infinite wisdom, are trying to react to the needs of their players, which is not entirely unheard of in gaming, but is definitely not a mainstream theme. And admittedly, they do allow the players a large degree of influence than the other games I have encountered. Once again, I stress this, I am not wanting to offer offense to anyone, just a different perspective, which I feel this community needs.

Ben - I'll answer your commentary point-by-point:
1.) The CCG "storyline."
This is, specifically, the Battle Backdrops. I've played L5R, and while their storyline is continued and expanded upon online their official CCG play all uses the same system as the Battle Backdrop - specifically, a set goal is presented and each side is explained as to motivations and where their interests conflict. Moreover, as the Battle Backdrops are explained on their individual pages the results of each battle are supposed to influence the greater world storyline of Apoc Earth. Specifically, each Backdrop ends with the line "When you're done, post the results on our forums and then you can see the change happen on the whole of the Untold Battlescape!"

I suspect that the reason this has not yet happened is that only ONE Untold Battle wrap-up has yet been posted on the site. Once I start running some Untold Battle games, I'll make sure to post up the results so the dynamic storyline can start adapting to the game results.

2.) The limitations of the CCG rules.
I'll be honest with you - the core rules of Untold Battle are nothing like L5R. They ARE, however, like Yu-Gi-Oh... and my friends who used to be huge into the Yu-Gi-Oh card game yet grew tired of having all their cards officially discontinued and disqualified from play are incredibly excited about the prospect of using Untold as a card game because it includes many of the characteristics from that game that they are most interested in without the negatives (and with the prospect of additional play variations, as expanded upon below).

Secondly... you want expanded win conditions? Make 'em! The Untold Battle game is young and just as flexible as the other aspects of the game. Ashy himself put forward a call for Battle Backdrop writers - why not put in one with alternative ways to achieve victory? There's nothing that says that you can't apply a turn limit, or an achievement goal, or a "protect/kill this guy" goal, or any number of alternatives in addition to the core "defeat everybody else" win condition. There is likewise nothing that says that if your idea isn't totally awesome it won't become official and be incorporated into general play options - in fact, the exact opposite is true. Just like I tried to explain in the thread that inspired this article, the options are only limited by your imagination and your willingness to expand upon the framework that Untold's creators have provided. If the basic rules aren't your cup of tea... well, they're basic for a reason, and that reason is so they can be easily customized to fit various styles and interests in play.

3.) The "killer card" issue.
Y'know, cone or AoE powers are not the game-breakers you make them out to be. Most of them are pretty limited in their power against the higher-UP Minions and their costs are rather high. Even when I threw NAU Grenadiers up against an Undead Infection opponent, I was only meaningfully damaging the weakest of the Minions and couldn't touch his Bone Snapper - which tore through my lines very effectively and rent the Grenadiers asunder. Much like the earlier discussion on the forum about a player who stacked Multi-Attack and Two Weapon Fighting, there's a matter of UP cost investment to consider in whether any "broken" power combination is as it appears.

Of course, there's also another important thing to consider - if any "killer cards" DO appear, I'm relatively certain Ashy and Nathan will respond to correct the issue. One of the guiding principles of the game system's philosophy appears specifically designed to make sure that people can have fun however they want to play, so if any "you must have this to win" cards rear their ugly heads (an inevitability when enough cards are printed, I'm sure) I'd be willing to lay money down that the problem will be solved almost instantaneously. The responsiveness of the design team to customer issues is so significant with Untold that I'd almost call it a feature of the game.

4.) Wargame complexity.
The issue you stated with tactical applications is exactly why I said to use the "Untold Battle" rules for force-creation with the Untold RPG combat rules. Think of it not as building an Untold Battle force, think of it as having 500 UP with which to build an entire PARTY of Untold RPG characters for the purpose of throwing at another party. Then use the Untold RPG movement rules, range rules, and everything else to actually run the conflict. Want to run a flanking maneuver? Send out a fleet of Racer Klik Rollers to speed across the field and behind the enemy lines with their ridiculous movement rates. Hammer and anvil? Put up a Firewall from the Gifts of Oaze deck and have your Churl bruisers force the enemy back into it.

As for any other "missing" tactical rules, I suspect the forthcoming PDF Primer will cover some of them in its pages - and any remaining untouched problem areas can be brought up and "officially" answered as they come. If the rules lawyers don't accept a ruling by Nathan and Ashy, you really shouldn't be playing with them. =P

5.) Redundancy of topic.
Yes, we DID just have this discussion not too long ago - on the forums, because someone browsed the site and couldn't find a concrete stated reason as to why the creators and promoters of this game call it "revolutionary." That was the reason I decided to write up an article to explain in exact and clear terms why *I* think it is, and presented it to Ashy for official inclusion on the site. It lays out my reasoning nicely, clearly, and (I hope) persuasively. If you disagree with my definition of "revolutionary," that's okay. None of us wrote the dictionary here. I would agree that many of the concepts implemented in Untold are in direct response to industry trends that the creators disagree with, and (if you really want to push the argument) it can indeed be argued that there is literally no "original" idea left on the globe with six billion people all busy thinking and dreaming and inventing... meaning that nothing is or ever can be TRULY "revolutionary" in thought.

For the vast majority of gamers, however, I believe Untold represents a true revolution against the limited, restrictive sandbox which constitutes the vast majority of RPGs. It's a game that includes in its core the simple principle of "YOU CAN." Whatever you want to play, you can. Whoever you want to play, you can. If you want to change things, you can. If you want to suggest alternative modes of play, you can. If you want to suggest powers for inclusion in the game, you can!

Want to create and implement additional victory conditions? Want to write up some additional war-game rules for official consideration and possible adoption? Want to try out some other cool idea? Why not? YOU CAN. Every criticism is a possibility for growth and development, not a reason for negativity. You're absolutely right in saying that Untold isn't a perfect game, but you're also right in its potential... a potential that lies not solely at the feet of the developers. That potential is in the hands of every player and GM who picks up the cards and has a thought, question, suggestion, or idea. It is potential you, and I, and everyone can expand upon and develop into something amazing. That's why I call this game revolutionary.

Alright, I have to stick in my two cents here... I will admit that I find the battle aspect of Untold boring. So far, there are 3 factions...and none of them would I dare touch if I played MtG, L5R, Yu-Gi-Oh, or anything else. If I wanted to battle, and I wanted to play a gathering of Kliks or L'Na, I would have to either use a race card and make all of my own creatures, or buy each and every deck that contains minions that have Kliks or L'Na. I'm not doing that. First of all, there are not enough variety of Klik and L'Na minion cards to bother with that. Secondly, while I understand that the point of the battle decks was to introduce factions, they have neglected to spend time on the main races (excluding the High-Bred Apocs). So, that being said, there is not a "group", "faction", or whatever you want to call it to draw my interest.

Secondly, when playing battle scenarios, Yu-Gi-Oh is extremely basic when it comes to card gaming. I consider L5R to be on the other end where its slightly more complicated. MtG is smack dab in the middle. And most of the people that the WM talk to at cons, they discuss MtG with them. Compared to MtG, Untold Battle offers nothing that would draw in the CCG player. There is not variety in creatures to play. There are not enough battlefied control elements (spells, powers, etc.). So you cannot say that if you are a CCGer, you will enjoy Untold Battle. Using your argument, its built very basic. Yes, more rules can be created to make it more complicated. But the rules are not actually the true problem. The cards are. Now, perhaps there is a way to use environment cards to control the battlefield. Maybe a few L'Na spells might help. But to buy one of the Battle Faction decks and start playing is not quite as fun and easy as they make it out to be. From my perspective, the people that are truly interested in playing Untold battle are under the age of 14...and most of them play Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon. That, right there, should tell you something about how basic Untold battle really is.

1.) The CCG "storyline."
This is, specifically, the Battle Backdrops. I've played L5R, and while their storyline is continued and expanded upon online their official CCG play all uses the same system as the Battle Backdrop - specifically, a set goal is presented and each side is explained as to motivations and where their interests conflict. Moreover, as the Battle Backdrops are explained on their individual pages the results of each battle are supposed to influence the greater world storyline of Apoc Earth. Specifically, each Backdrop ends with the line "When you're done, post the results on our forums and then you can see the change happen on the whole of the Untold Battlescape!"

I suspect that the reason this has not yet happened is that only ONE Untold Battle wrap-up has yet been posted on the site. Once I start running some Untold Battle games, I'll make sure to post up the results so the dynamic storyline can start adapting to the game results.

Ok, I'll give the Battle Backdrops this. But, still, these are situations not an over arcing story line that many people enjoy. But there remains of the problem of real factions. The only REAL factions we have to choose from are Highbred, Externals, and Undead, none of which I am a fan of. We have a small sampling of Churls, L'na, Klik, and a few odds and ends. I have no real option if I wish to build a minion Churl Deck, or a L'na deck. Untold wants to offer variety, but so far the sampling is pretty slim pickings. And while I understand that the game is in their fledging year, SOME development should have been put in to building up what they consider to be "core" race factions.

2.) The limitations of the CCG rules.
I'll be honest with you - the core rules of Untold Battle are nothing like L5R. They ARE, however, like Yu-Gi-Oh... and my friends who used to be huge into the Yu-Gi-Oh card game yet grew tired of having all their cards officially discontinued and disqualified from play are incredibly excited about the prospect of using Untold as a card game because it includes many of the characteristics from that game that they are most interested in without the negatives (and with the prospect of additional play variations, as expanded upon below).

Secondly... you want expanded win conditions? Make 'em! The Untold Battle game is young and just as flexible as the other aspects of the game. Ashy himself put forward a call for Battle Backdrop writers - why not put in one with alternative ways to achieve victory? There's nothing that says that you can't apply a turn limit, or an achievement goal, or a "protect/kill this guy" goal, or any number of alternatives in addition to the core "defeat everybody else" win condition. There is likewise nothing that says that if your idea isn't totally awesome it won't become official and be incorporated into general play options - in fact, the exact opposite is true. Just like I tried to explain in the thread that inspired this article, the options are only limited by your imagination and your willingness to expand upon the framework that Untold's creators have provided. If the basic rules aren't your cup of tea... well, they're basic for a reason, and that reason is so they can be easily customized to fit various styles and interests in play.

Yes, but if you read my post, I pointed out in the Wargamer rules that people want specific rules on how things work. I have hardly ever seen a game where people can agree on a homebrew setting with a lot of rules. A few rules, like, if your deck goes over by 5 pts thats fine. But making an entirely new win condition? That's an extremely difficult. Also, besides the rules being incredibly simplistic (admittedly, you could probably teach Untold to a monkey), the cards are also incredibly simplistic. The cards are in, what I feel, dire need of beefing up.

3.) The "killer card" issue.
Y'know, cone or AoE powers are not the game-breakers you make them out to be. Most of them are pretty limited in their power against the higher-UP Minions and their costs are rather high. Even when I threw NAU Grenadiers up against an Undead Infection opponent, I was only meaningfully damaging the weakest of the Minions and couldn't touch his Bone Snapper - which tore through my lines very effectively and rent the Grenadiers asunder. Much like the earlier discussion on the forum about a player who stacked Multi-Attack and Two Weapon Fighting, there's a matter of UP cost investment to consider in whether any "broken" power combination is as it appears.

Of course, there's also another important thing to consider - if any "killer cards" DO appear, I'm relatively certain Ashy and Nathan will respond to correct the issue. One of the guiding principles of the game system's philosophy appears specifically designed to make sure that people can have fun however they want to play, so if any "you must have this to win" cards rear their ugly heads (an inevitability when enough cards are printed, I'm sure) I'd be willing to lay money down that the problem will be solved almost instantaneously. The responsiveness of the design team to customer issues is so significant with Untold that I'd almost call it a feature of the game.

In my experience, these cards are incredibly powerful when used against minions. You could easily build an AoE killer, focused around three or four cards. You could easily pour several points into Initiative boosting cards, easily winning initiative on all but the worst of dice rolls. And minions wouldn't be able to stand up to it. Btw, I understand that Yu-Gi-Oh is a much easier system. Ofcourse it is, it's target audience is children. Games such as L5R are much more mentally involved, involve a greater metagame. If you enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh, then you will LOVE Untold Battle, since they are on roughly the same maturity and strategic levels. If you want something more challenging, then Untold is not for you.

4.) Wargame complexity.
The issue you stated with tactical applications is exactly why I said to use the "Untold Battle" rules for force-creation with the Untold RPG combat rules. Think of it not as building an Untold Battle force, think of it as having 500 UP with which to build an entire PARTY of Untold RPG characters for the purpose of throwing at another party. Then use the Untold RPG movement rules, range rules, and everything else to actually run the conflict. Want to run a flanking maneuver? Send out a fleet of Racer Klik Rollers to speed across the field and behind the enemy lines with their ridiculous movement rates. Hammer and anvil? Put up a Firewall from the Gifts of Oaze deck and have your Churl bruisers force the enemy back into it.

As for any other "missing" tactical rules, I suspect the forthcoming PDF Primer will cover some of them in its pages - and any remaining untouched problem areas can be brought up and "officially" answered as they come. If the rules lawyers don't accept a ruling by Nathan and Ashy, you really shouldn't be playing with them. =P

The problem is, that while movement is defined for the RPG and there are movement rules for the Battle, there is no combination of these rules. And then the problem becomes what defines "x" amount of movement? Do we say that every inch is 5 ft and use tape measures? Do we build grids or hexes? The problem is that there is no ruling for them. This is a major concern for many players, myself included. We need some form of consistent rules on movement. How do I know that I am completely surrounded by enemy units? Why can't I just run through them, or jump over them? And you NEVER said there was a wall of flame behind me, because that would have changed everything. These are major issues. And while it is WONDERFUL that we can go and ask the creators for a ruling, what if I am in the middle of a game, away from any computer? And even if I have a PC or some other device handy, how long will I have to wait for a ruling? Another MAIN aspect of wargaming is miniatures. How do I compensate for this? And collecting/painting mini's is another aspect of Wargaming. Untold has no substitute for this. One of the reasons the C.U.B.E. at Bobe's was such a flop is because it is mostly wargamers or board gamers. They have no interest, whatsoever, in cards.

For the vast majority of gamers, however, I believe Untold represents a true revolution against the limited, restrictive sandbox which constitutes the vast majority of RPGs. It's a game that includes in its core the simple principle of "YOU CAN." Whatever you want to play, you can. Whoever you want to play, you can. If you want to change things, you can. If you want to suggest alternative modes of play, you can. If you want to suggest powers for inclusion in the game, you can!

I understand this. I can do anything with Untold. But this flexibility is another major issue. I can't REALLY do anything that I want to do if I don't have the cards for it. In a card game, a printed card represents legitimacy. So, what if I wanted to build a minion deck of Samurai and Ninja? Right now, I can't. I have no template to base it from. I cannot employ them in battle or RPG since I have cards/stats/etc.

Want to create and implement additional victory conditions? Want to write up some additional war-game rules for official consideration and possible adoption? Want to try out some other cool idea? Why not? YOU CAN. Every criticism is a possibility for growth and development, not a reason for negativity. You're absolutely right in saying that Untold isn't a perfect game, but you're also right in its potential... a potential that lies not solely at the feet of the developers. That potential is in the hands of every player and GM who picks up the cards and has a thought, question, suggestion, or idea. It is potential you, and I, and everyone can expand upon and develop into something amazing. That's why I call this game revolutionary.

And all of this is wonderful, if I have the time to dedicate to building entirely new worlds. However, I might not always have the luxury of sitting down one evening and hammering new rules, worlds, or play styles. This why people play other games. They have established rules and settings.

But there remains of the problem of real factions. The only REAL factions we have to choose from are Highbred, Externals, and Undead, none of which I am a fan of. We have a small sampling of Churls, L'na, Klik, and a few odds and ends. I have no real option if I wish to build a minion Churl Deck, or a L'na deck. Untold wants to offer variety, but so far the sampling is pretty slim pickings. And while I understand that the game is in their fledging year, SOME development should have been put in to building up what they consider to be "core" race factions.

I'm going to be completely honest - I agree with you and Dovebear that this is a *huge* problem from the CCG side of the game. I would frankly say that Untold Battle has been arguably neglected in the first months of launch. This is NOT, however, a system problem. It's an implementation problem. If you're talking about the system, which I am in this article, implementation and scheduling simply isn't the topic.

Does it need to be addressed? Absolutely. There is a possible risk that the Battle system will die on the vine if additional focus isn't put into it. But that just wasn't what I was talking about.

Yes, but if you read my post, I pointed out in the Wargamer rules that people want specific rules on how things work. I have hardly ever seen a game where people can agree on a homebrew setting with a lot of rules. A few rules, like, if your deck goes over by 5 pts thats fine. But making an entirely new win condition? That's an extremely difficult. Also, besides the rules being incredibly simplistic (admittedly, you could probably teach Untold to a monkey), the cards are also incredibly simplistic. The cards are in, what I feel, dire need of beefing up.

I wasn't suggesting you home-brew some rules for your own individual games. I was suggesting you write up additional variant rules and submit them for consideration by the developers. Likewise with cards and game ideas. I know for a fact that you already mentioned doing that in another forum post, so I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but my point is that if you feel something is lacking you have the opportunity to suggest how best to fix it. "This isn't very good" is just criticism. "This isn't very good, and you can improve/fix it by doing X" is constructive criticism, which Ashy and Nathan appear to value to a very high extent - to the point where my own constructive criticism has basically turned me into a contributor to the site and game.

I guess you could say that I look at Untold as a work in progress, being shaped by what each and every one of its players has to suggest and comment upon. Your "home brew" of yesterday has a decent chance of becoming "official alternate win conditions" next week. To put this in another perspective, the "Untold as war game" concept didn't exist until I realized it was a possibility and wrote about it. The "Foundational Powers" deck which is the next scheduled release didn't exist until the players asked for it, and it contains the "Bio-Mechanical Conversion Chassis" power card that didn't exist until I in my first week of posting suggested it.

If you think something's missing, it probably IS right now. You can wait for the creators to find the time to do something about it, or you can fill the holes in yourself and help shape the game's future.

In my experience, these cards are incredibly powerful when used against minions. You could easily build an AoE killer, focused around three or four cards. You could easily pour several points into Initiative boosting cards, easily winning initiative on all but the worst of dice rolls. And minions wouldn't be able to stand up to it. Btw, I understand that Yu-Gi-Oh is a much easier system. Ofcourse it is, it's target audience is children. Games such as L5R are much more mentally involved, involve a greater metagame. If you enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh, then you will LOVE Untold Battle, since they are on roughly the same maturity and strategic levels. If you want something more challenging, then Untold is not for you.

You know, I'd like to stand up for my friends (that I hope you didn't intentionally just insult) here and point out that simpler games do not necessarily require simpler mindsets. "Apples to Apples" is a much simpler form of table game than "Settlers of Catan," for instance, but the former isn't just for kids and the latter isn't just for adults. It's just a question of ease-of-play and desired levels of mental involvement vs. relaxation, and different people prefer different balances of those variables at different timers.

Now, if there ARE indeed imbalances in the game then you should clearly list them somewhere and give the problem a chance to be rectified. Having only played Untold Battle once thus far, in an attempt to play-test the rules so that I could clearly provide instruction on them, I can only vouch for the fact that my range-and-AoE NAU army was completely overrun by the Undead Infection. Of course, I can also say that I had fun and plan to try out some Battle Backdrops in the future. Maybe I'm just not "complicated" enough. Much like my earlier statements, however, I feel you're being premature when proclaiming such negative judgments. If there are problems, they can be fixed and you can help fix them. It is *way* too early to pull the sheet over the system's head and call in the next of kin.

The problem is, that while movement is defined for the RPG and there are movement rules for the Battle, there is no combination of these rules. And then the problem becomes what defines "x" amount of movement? Do we say that every inch is 5 ft and use tape measures? Do we build grids or hexes? The problem is that there is no ruling for them. This is a major concern for many players, myself included. We need some form of consistent rules on movement. How do I know that I am completely surrounded by enemy units? Why can't I just run through them, or jump over them?

In my own experience? 5 feet is an inch, use fabric tape measures, don't bother with hexes when you can just cut out a few pieces of paper to represent AoE/cone effects with the 1" conversion metric, you are "surrounded" when you can't clearly move your piece through opposing pieces without touching them, you can pass through opposition pieces if you have "fly" type movement such as by using the "Mad Hops" Power card...

Having tried out the "tactical combat" side of Untold before I officially went as far as to stick it on the site, I think it's a blast.

And while it is WONDERFUL that we can go and ask the creators for a ruling, what if I am in the middle of a game, away from any computer? And even if I have a PC or some other device handy, how long will I have to wait for a ruling?

I'm not saying ask DURING, I'm saying ask BEFORE. If the PDF primer doesn't cover a rare-instance situation, ask about it and get an official reply to the circumstance added to it or the FAQ. If one comes up during the game that you hadn't thought about, collectively agree upon a temporary house rule until you can come back to the site and ask about it afterwards as I did with my "Wearing Down VIT" post. I honestly don't think this is as tough as you make it out to be - as I said, I play-tested the wargame concept with my friends. We had fun. I had to house rule an answer for the benefits of attacking from high ground, but if it's not covered in the PDF I'll ask about it and until then the "+1 BODY ATK for having high ground" idea works well enough to enjoy the experience.

Another MAIN aspect of wargaming is miniatures. How do I compensate for this? And collecting/painting mini's is another aspect of Wargaming. Untold has no substitute for this.

I heard discussion at Imagicon about custom Untold miniatures as a future possibility, for what it's worth, but miniatures are *not* required for wargames. If you haven't heard of it, look up a game called "Fairy Meat." It's a wargame that uses paper cutouts and nothing more, and it is highly enjoyable. It's also infinitely more affordable than the games which require figures, breaking down the barrier of entry to play that has always kept me from ever getting into a game like 40k. That's also the reason I bought into the Pirates of the Spanish Main CCG for a little while, because the system provided wargame elements without the exorbitant cost. If you nonetheless DEMAND figures, alongside enough people, I suppose a way can be found to provide them. I just don't think they're necessary, and I think increasing the game's accessibility by keeping them unnecessary is a very important thing.

And all of this is wonderful, if I have the time to dedicate to building entirely new worlds. However, I might not always have the luxury of sitting down one evening and hammering new rules, worlds, or play styles. This why people play other games. They have established rules and settings.

Perhaps, then, at this precise moment Untold is not for you and you should take a break to give it some time to finish developing and "establish" itself. I've noticed that the people who appear to latch onto this game with the most interest at the moment are the people who can be described in one word - as "creators." They see Untold in essentially the same way I do: what you might call a hole, I call an opportunity. I don't have to or even necessarily want to be TOLD what's in that hole. In fact, I want to create something to fit that hole and share it with everyone else. I can build my own setting around Untold - indeed, I already have - without requiring a firm "established setting" to work from. I just take the scattered pieces that exist around here, tape them together, improvise what I need to fill in the rest, and run with it. If people enjoy what I've done, so much the better.

Now, I can see where you're coming from. You want structure, and Untold at the moment pretty much lacks it... but myself, I love that. It means I get the chance to create with "Untold" freedom and flexibility. Regardless, your time is coming. Whenever a good idea comes up, gets Official-ized, and is locked into place the game becomes less about concept and more about implementation. Eventually you'll have your established rules and setting, your firm structure from which to play the game as it is "supposed" to be, and at that point you'll probably be far more interested in the game. By contrast, I'll be far LESS interested in it - which is why I'm glad I got into Untold early. I find the sheer possibilities of this system and this setting to be far more incredible than any individual end-state for Untold could ever be to me.

But perhaps once Splintered Serenity is smoothed out then I can help with the potential fantasy setting that's been bandied about...

I agree with you almost completely, and the points I don't agree are hardly worth mentioning. I am just concerned over the fate of this game overall. For many of us, this is a honey moon stage, first love and all that. But really and truly, we need to step back from it and assess it from a critical standpoint.

Ben said: "My first problem comes with the CCG portion of the article. I disagree that CCG players will like or even moderately enjoy Untold Battle for two reasons. While many players, me being one, does not like "blind" packaging, that is only one strength against several weaknesses. My major issue with Untold Battle is two fold: 1.) The "Open Setting" of Untold lacks an amount of cohesiveness. Sure, the Klik don't like the L'na, but why? Why are Churls and Apoc Highbred fighting? While an "open setting" may be beneficial for the RPG side of things, it really only confuses the CCG side. With the exception of MtG, many card games are based off of specific settings. L5R is a popular card game based around story telling (an element we claim to have). L5R holds several large tournaments across the World that allow players to influence the events in the empire of Rokugan (L5R's setting). Stories are published to show how things unfold in the fiction, and special cards are even printed for people to use. L5R has a rich history and background, with weekly fictions provided to allow players a more detailed look into that setting. So, when I play Scorpion, I know what kind people Scorpions are. I know why Scorpions don't like the Crane Clan, or the Crab Clan. The setting also helps me understand the playstyle of the Scorpion Clan."

As ManyHattedMan said above, we have Battle Backgrounds currently. Further, that is not ALL that is planned. Sadly, we're not an AEG, or WOTC and while we have many plans for expanding, deepening and broadening the Battle side of Untold, it was not our initial focus. WMS, because we are small, had to make some very tough decisions three years ago when we began laying out our release schedule/marketing plan for Untold. We saw early on that while both the RPG and the Battle aspects of the game had tremendous potential for success, that the game and the company would be best served by highlighting the RPG side of Untold because it was so very different than anything else out there. In truth, it is the fact that you can use the same cards you would use in the CCG in an RPG that is a selling point for Battle (and not so much the reverse). Admittedly, if all we had was Untold: Battle at the moment, we would not have nearly so strong a product - it would be a CCG with a slightly different twist, but that would basically be it.

That being said, everyone needs to bear in mind that we're ONLY IN MONTH THREE and we're NOWHERE NEAR DONE YET. There's a tremendous amount to come, both for Untold: RPG and Untold: Battle. However, you'll need to be patient with us...

Ben said: "Which leads to my next point: 2.) Untold Battle lacks a measure of strategic complexity. While Untold strives for simplicity in the belief that it enhances the gaming experience, CCG's are built on the exact opposite principle. A simple strategy is often easily unraveled. For example, I will take a CCG I am currently playing: Legend of the Five Rings (L5R). L5R offers a variety of ways to win: Military Victory (eliminating an opponents provinces and therefore preventing them from building armies), Honor Victory (Obtaining a Family Honor of 40, and therefore becoming to honorable of a person to attack), Dishonor Victory/Loss (When a player's family honor drops to -20, and therefore to dishonorable to live), and Enlightenment (Putting all 5 elemental rings into play). The different strategic styles are nearly endless, and while each of the 9 clans have a few dominating arch types, the combinations of various styles are almost equally endless. For example, I play Scorpion Clan, a clan of ninja and courtiers that spread lies and perform assassinations to prevent the other clans of the Emerald Empire from threatening the Empress. Scorpion cards are built with the style in mind. My decks are often employ complicated strategies, making it more difficult for my opponent to win. I have a deck for Dishonor Victory, which allows me to whittle away at my opponents honor and assume almost complete control over the game. I never need attack with this deck. Conversely, my Ninja deck is very aggressive, but equally controlling, allowing me to assassinate my opponents characters and discard his cards to prevent their use. I understand that powers and such can be added to Untold Battle, the overall Battle Format lacks complexity. The two lines of minions or characters is so simplistic, it almost hurts. There is no need for tactics. Simply move them forward or backwards. However, this is a problem. The two lines offer really no challenge. I also disagree that there are not "killer cards". A properly built character, with a focus of radial or conal damaging powers could easily eliminate a handful of minions. What many people complain about with CCG's are the killer combos, but thats why several people love CCG's as well, the killer Combos is what makes the game fun."

Again, all I can say is wait for it. We have some stuff in works that I think, will make the CCG'ers out there very happy. :P

Ben said: "I also disagree with your opinion of wargaming with Untold. For wargamers to enjoy this game would take a lot of work. Untold lacks major tactical components to make a war game possible. Wargaming is half building your unit and half deploying them. Once again, I will refer to a game I play: Battletech. I take careful consideration when I build units. I look at weapons, heat build up, ammo, armor, etc. But when I actually play, I also take care of how I place and move my units. Maybe I would like to perform a flanking manuever. Then I need to properly place my faster units to actually physically flank my opponent. Do I want to set up a "Hammer And Anvil"? Then I need to make sure my slower, heavier units are in place, and my faster units push my enemy in the right direction. True, Untold does allow for individual characters, or even armies to be built quickly. However, Untold Battle does not support advanced tactics, and it would fall to the players to develop homebrew rules to compensate, which can lead to problems since a rules lawyer will want to look directly at a rulebook to resolve disputes."

I'm not really sure why we're getting trashed for a product we've not even released yet... We do not have a freakin' wargame at the moment. I think what ManyHattedMan was saying is that when you buy Untold you already have the potential to play a version of a wargame AS WELL. I cannot think of many other games that when you buy it you can automatically play a whole different genre of game (it would be analogous to buying checkers and having all the basic components to play Monopoly in the box).

Ben said: "So, why am I still here? Well, simply put, I like Untold. I like the setting ok, but I don't love it. I like the card based playstyle, but I feel that we are running into several problems as many card abilities are not explained clearly."

This intrigues me. I would love to hear more specifics on what you don't like about the setting, as well as which cards are not explained clearly.

Ben said: "Is this game perfect? No, far from it. It needs a lot of work. However, it has the potential to be a great game. Is Untold revolutionary? Well, we just had this discussion. A month ago, I would have said yes, it is. However, I no longer feel this way. I feel Untold is more reactionary. The creators in their infinite wisdom, are trying to react to the needs of their players, which is not entirely unheard of in gaming, but is definitely not a mainstream theme. And admittedly, they do allow the players a large degree of influence than the other games I have encountered. Once again, I stress this, I am not wanting to offer offense to anyone, just a different perspective, which I feel this community needs."

I'm not really sure how to respond to this, other that to say that you're completely entitled to your opinion...

Ok, very intrigued by what may be introduced into Untold Battle (under the assumption that new "factions" will be added). However, I do want to know if there will be something out there that might aid with Battlefield control (no need to give anything away). I just want to know. I have played L5R, MtG, and Yu-Gi-Oh in the CCG area. And my biggest problem is that in each area, there is some sort of ability to control the battlefield through spells, traps, powers, etc. I agree with MHM in that Untold Battle could best be related to Yu-Gi-Oh, but even it had some sort of ability to control the battlefield with spells and traps. And in no way was I insulting the players of any of the games (I still have my cards for all three, and have most recently played Yu-Gi-Oh a few weeks ago). My point is that the game seems very simplistic right now. Its hard for me to enjoy it. I like control (this is why Ben hates playing any card game with me). I do not usually offer a full on attack. I'm more subtle in how I handle it, using environments, spells, etc. in my ability to weaken or destroy my opponent. I do not see this in battle, though now I'm wondering if our current cards might be able to do this. So I'm wondering if this has been considered and will be introduced?

I'm guessing folks just don't read things anymore, as everyone keeps asking and assuming that more factions will be added, while it says it QUITE PLAINLY right on the Battle Primer. Bottom right there are several listed, in fact.

And if you think that's all, then let me assure you that this is NOT THE CASE. There will be many more Factions: for the L'na, for Klik, and even for future races and creatures that no one has seen yet...

I cannot talk about what's coming for Battle at the moment, but I can assure you that more stuff is coming. Just like more stuff is coming for the RPG. There are whole card types that folks have not even seen yet, for goodness sake!

I don't recall MtG, Chaotic, L5R, or Yu-Gi-Oh coming out the gate with nearly so many factions and deck types as they have today - yet we're expected to??? And yet, we still released more initial SKU's than any RPG/CCG anywhere, but we don't get credit for that...

Wow, I am really confused....

Or maybe I'm just tired.... :(

You are exhausted, and it is apparent to everyone.

Look, we are simply offering criticism. We all love this game, don't get us wrong. But these are problems that will be handled in the future, and we are aware of that, but I feel like the creators need to know now, so they can plan in better detail for future releases. This game is not perfect, and there is only so much you can release at a time. But we are simply pointing out that the game does indeed have shortcomings that will dealt with later, but the shortcomings are still present regardless.

And trust me, I've got several ideas about how to make this game better. New settings, new play styles, etc. But I don't want to or need to add another burden to an already overpacked mule.

Let me stress this to you, because I am guilty of this sometimes myself: Don't take this criticism personally! Take it for what it is, opinions. We have OPINIONS on what we believe will make the game BETTER. We UNDERSTAND that you cannot do everything right now. But these are things that can be handled in the future. And trust me, we'll be here to assist you however we can. But I feel like you're taking a lot of this criticism, which is meant to be contructive, personally. Untold is your baby, and we get that. But to your customers, it's a game. And a good game, but one that can ultimately be made better.

Perhaps I am tired, I'm not really sure.

What I am sure of is that I would like to see some specific examples of these perceived shortcomings. Thanks. :)

We've offered specific examples and comparisons. They are in the posts all across the forums. Now, if you'd like, we can take the time to attempt to compile an extensive list of these problems.

Look, it's obvious you are tired. And if someone from outside this little community were to come in here and start trying to bash on the game, you can bet your ugly mug that we'd close ranks on them and defend the game tooth and nail. Read the email I just sent you, that will explain things a little more clearly.

Alright, lets start with this problem:

That Untold Battle Primer you posted the link for above? I can't find it under the Battle tab. I also can't find it under the Untold Primer tab. Where is this link on the website? Because it should actually be found under both of those. Because, yes, you do say that more factions are coming out. Not that I know what any of them are going to be (aside from one that will include Churls). But if someone does not have one of those sheets, how are they going to know? What would be awesome to see, is a tab under battle that had "Battle Backdrops". Under "Factions", start intoducing the new factions (and recruit people to handle this if you want). If I knew roughly what minions, types of minions, etc. would be in these decks, I could write up a short paragraph about the future factions entering the Untold Battle Arena. They may not be available right now, but tease people with that knowledge that they are coming! (Newsletter worthy area...TOTALLY!!)

You know, I really would state that this thread (which I honestly *NEVER* expected to be so contentious in original creation) suffers from what I would call a "problem of tone."

You're offering good criticism and there are ideas for how to resolve that criticism peppered throughout, but the way it's phrased and the tone of it makes it seem less like a critique and more like an attack. I can understand why Ashy would be somewhat shocked and defensive in response to that tone, because... well heck, you've been a supporter of Untold for bloody ages and it comes as a bit of a shock to see you suddenly jump *way* into negativism.

That being said, your comments are good and important - and I would say that you should consolidate them all with your ideas for fixing the problems you see. When I searched through the entire printed world of Untold and posted up each typo I caught when I caught them, I was eventually asked to consolidate as well for the simple fact that it's easier to keep track of these sorts of things when they're all distilled down into one list instead of scattered around forum threads and e-mails. Suggestions are also always good! If you have a thought about how to resolve some of the stuff you think is worrisome or problematic, suggest it! Even if it's not used as it exactly was put forward, it might spark an idea or thought that will help get resolve what you see as a critical problem.

By way of example, Dovebear again has presented some very good suggestions. I myself was lost as to where one might find the PDF downloads that include the Battle Primer (they're actually on the "What is Untold?" page). Now, they're supposed to be moving soon to a specific "downloads" page - but linking to them in the mean-time from the various Battle-specific parts of the site is a great idea. Likewise, having Battle Faction write-ups like the HPs and Ecologies would help preview and provide information about what the wider world of Untold Battle has to offer. Those are excellent suggestions, and I'd like to echo them for when the developers come back into the thread.

I just think the thread got off on the wrong foot, using the wrong tone - but there's nothing that says we can't turn this into something constructive and positive. Dovebear's made a good start.

I agree that tone is hard to determine with this text. And I tend more towards a straight forward approach when typing than when physically speaking to someone.

No, this is not an attack. To me, its an assessment. Yes, I've been a long time supporter, and I've done my share of trench work for the game (just ask Ashy. I got so horse at ConCarolinas I could hardly talk for a while on Saturday!). But given the fact that tone is hard to communicate and that, well let's face it, Ashy is tired and someone is bashing on his baby, then, yeah I can see why Ashy would get defensive.

Just remember Ashy, I'm still HERE and have no intentions of going anywhere.

Ben said: "We've offered specific examples and comparisons. They are in the posts all across the forums. Now, if you'd like, we can take the time to attempt to compile an extensive list of these problems."

If it's not too much trouble, that would be great. Feel free to email it.

Dovebear said:"That Untold Battle Primer you posted the link for above? I can't find it under the Battle tab. I also can't find it under the Untold Primer tab. Where is this link on the website? Because it should actually be found under both of those."

It's right here, bottom of the page: http://www.untoldthegame.com/about

Dovebear said:"Because, yes, you do say that more factions are coming out. Not that I know what any of them are going to be (aside from one that will include Churls)."

If you read over the site, it's not hard to find the information:

Churl Confederation and Novus Europa can be found here: http://www.untoldthegame.com/splintered-serenity/setting/europe
ASEAS and PPA here: http://www.untoldthegame.com/splintered-serenity/setting/east-asia
The Dreaming and Wardens of Aotearoa can be found here: http://www.untoldthegame.com/splintered-serenity/setting/oceania

Dovebear said: "But if someone does not have one of those sheets, how are they going to know? What would be awesome to see, is a tab under battle that had "Battle Backdrops". Under "Factions", start intoducing the new factions (and recruit people to handle this if you want)."

Point taken, and I will take steps to rectify this...

Dovebear said: "If I knew roughly what minions, types of minions, etc. would be in these decks, I could write up a short paragraph about the future factions entering the Untold Battle Arena. They may not be available right now, but tease people with that knowledge that they are coming!(Newsletter worthy area...TOTALLY!!)"

Some of this has already been done, as you can see from the links above, and some of it is already in work. Again, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean: A. We've not thought of it or B. It's not there...

ManyHattedMan said: "Likewise, having Battle Faction write-ups like the HPs and Ecologies would help preview and provide information about what the wider world of Untold Battle has to offer. Those are excellent suggestions, and I'd like to echo them for when the developers come back into the thread."

Yup, these are already in work, in fact, Ben has already written several of them. Ironic, I know. :P

Ok, so I get why they are listed under settings...but why not put them under battle factions too? If I'm looking at what factions I want to play, I'm going to the factions page, not the settings page. This confuses me as I don't see why its not under battle too? Kind of like having battle backdrops on the home page, but not the battle tab. To full use this website to the best of its ability, think logically about where someone might go to look something up. If I want battle backdrops, I'd go to battle, or maybe even settings. The newest one should definitely be on the home page (like the newest of everything is). But go ahead and put them under the battle tab too.

Also, it might tell you something that I went to the Untold Primer page and the Battle Page to find that Battle Primer. If I"m wanting to learn how to play or checking up on rules, I don't think I'm going to go to "What is Untold?" to find the Battle Primer. And if some people do, fine, leave it. But add links on the other 2 pages too.

I would like to see some of them too. I've written so much, that it is difficult to remember what I've done.

I like the pace of releases (and I'm sure Melissa enjoys my not spending too much too quickly either). I wasn't sure about Battle and ran a C.U.B.E focused solely on that portion of the game to get an idea of what bothered me. (And got some feedback that helped clarify what my issues were.)

I've been eagerly awaiting ASEAS and PPA factions ever since I thought up my Neo-Japan campaign. There are so many hints on the website - artwork that doesn't corespond to any card yet released - I can tell there's lots in store and I'm willing to wait. If the foundation of the game is strong, it's easy to fix little missteps. If the basic premise of the game has some problems, then it takes some major rewrites to fix. (Think MtG and the Big 9.)