Mon, 2010-08-09 14:25
Something totally unique to Untold that I have seen in many various shapes and fashions: A table-turning, life-saving story swap played in a critical moment of a game. This involves when a character realizes they are in dire straights, unable to tackle an obstacle with their current set of cards--or need a particular card not currently in play--and know their next move will make or break the battle. In many traditional RPG games, this is the moment your character slams full-force into gridlock and the inexorable catastrophe consumes you helplessly, unless some other person or power intervenes (and various traditional games have created support systems, like Hero Points in Mutants and Masterminds, to give that extra edge to a character in need). And in many cases, players continue with this frozen stasis in the middle of an Untold battle or challenge: They simply surrender to the cards at hand, not realizing they can use more than what they dealt to themselves.
Some would argue this defeats the character concept, changing from, say, a Body 9 to a Soul 10 and using magic to fight an incorporeal monster that thwarts grenades and guns. "How can I justify this" one might say, "when that would be untrue to the character?" But that forgoes that we ourselves are actively changing to deal with challenges in our own lives, modifying our approaches and means to overcome matters beyond our skill set. For one, I am a Christian and a thinker, both lending to a meditative (mind) and spiritual (soul) perspective to life and its challenges, but I come to challenges when both of these say, "Do the work"--the physical labor (Body)--and I have to call on my physical energy to fulfill a task. At times, I can augment my work with what I know (Mind) and my faith (Soul), but these themselves challenge me to grow in strength (Body). I often have to set aside my mental tasks and devote my energy to the labor, dedicating all of me to the task at hand--Thus, reducing my mental activity (mind boost) to gain the added focus, strength and drive (body boost) to fulfill the job. I've just altered, for a moment, my natural character to overcome a challenge, without compromising my integrity.
In game, this is much more obvious and open-ended--in Untold it is far easier to adjust your character! (I won't easily "Hulk out" without some serious help ;) And that is what Untold aims for: Allowing a player to adapt his character and maximize his or her fun. We don't want you sitting with a support character getting wailed by a tyrannical tank, unable to defend yourself. We desire to see you rise up and say, "My medic is tired of seeing these thick-skinned meatheads pounding my party, so I embrace my internal fury and channel it into an intense blast from my Nauseator--I'm dropping my Soul and downgrading Medical Training to level 1, boosting my Body with the points...BLAM! Take that knucklehead!" Your character can drop right back into healing mode without having to sacrifice his or her integrity as the party's support healer. And there are MANY ways to mold your character into a life-saving (or threatening) force, due to the mix of Story Swaps and Hot Swaps: A good example would be in using Apoc Amplifications or Core Combat to supplement an Apoc medic or even any other race, as you can easily move from mending wounds to tackling, tripping or leaping between a friend and an oncoming enemy--heroes are known for their momentary wonders, taking stunning sacrifices at crucial times.
It can also be self-serving, as my personal example will exhibit, though there are many, many wonderful illustrations of this concept (and Ashy has a great article on Transforming Characters). I was playing a Thistle warrior who was tasked with his party to discover the meaning and threat of a Klik Tower, seeking to rid the area of any evil it might enclose. We had been in the tower for a handful of moments when one of the party members froze a portion of the crank shaft at the center of the giant tower, causing the whole structure to sway ominously. My character realized collapse was eminent and no thistle does well in a crashing world of metal and fire. He raced for the nearest vent and used his considerable strength to land a slicing blow to slam his way out of the tower--hundreds of feet above the ground. At this point, my character is in terrible straits.
In his haste, he has dove out of the chute without any of his party around to tether him or help (combat and chaos reigned inside the tower). He has no magic, no special powers to soak such a massive load of damage, or any skills at flight: He is a giant bush, for crying out loud! I could resign myself to statting a new character and waiting for the adventure to conclude; in a traditional game, I would be seeing the exponential numbers for falling damage and knowing that death was certain, true escape beyond hope for the plummeting animate plant. But then I realized I had set aside Phase into Earth during character creation, a promising power for a Thistle that I did not use because I had used Gargantuan instead to boost my strength. A glimmer of hope came to me as I looked over my Story Swaps and a justification for the change came to my mind. When my turn came, Ashy (the GM) turned to me and asked what I was doing before the inevitable crushing blow came. I said...
"Well, Th'sss has totally forgotten about combat, its mind intent on the tremendous fall before it [Story Swapped out my weapons and combat powers]. Its mind goes back to the days it was a seed, when it had first embraced the earth. It opens its being to the familiar rush that comes from that joyous moment and calms its body, eager to embrace the earth [Story Swap Phase into Earth]."
Ashy looked at me stunned, but accepted the story as a valid way to transform the character. Instead of untold carnage to my character, he slipped through the surface like a fish into water, escaping insufferable damage by a small Story Swap Power. And that is only the beginning of the character's molding transformations in the ensuing moments of the battle. He would later grow again to Gargantuan to do battle with the falling tower itself, but that is another story entirely.
I would like to hear your stories of life-saving transformations--where you either dodged a bullet or took one for a friend, where your mentalist discovered the path of the warrior to defend a fallen friend, or where your barbarian waxed philosophical to tackle the riddle which bewitched his genius brother. For, in truth, these are the moments that make a character, not break them. They are the expanding moments, the crucial challenges that change them, transform them into something more. Something unknown and afore untold...and that is what this game is all about.
Mon, 2010-08-09 16:20
#2
wow
[Additional Applause]
Tue, 2010-08-10 21:24
#3
For what it's worth, I see
For what it's worth, I see your point... but being as I *was* the medic in your example being beat upon, my response is a simple one. I didn't remake my character to take the blow and enter combat because, even though it could be done, my feeling was that actually doing so would have been inimical to the very character *I* wanted to play. Yes, realistically a person put in a life-threatening situation would adapt to save their lives by drawing upon alternative skill-sets and past experiences to pull out some sort of last-ditch survival attempt. So I could have dumped all my healing stuff temporarily and replaced it with combat powers... except that I, the player, didn't want to fight. When faced with a fight I can't get out of whatsoever, while desiring gameplay that isn't combat-mandatory, my response isn't to kill my character because I don't see any way to survive the encounter. It's because I don't see any way to survive the encounter without fighting.
It is an obstinate streak of mine - I don't like being forced into something I haven't agreed to, especially if it's something I don't personally like and don't expect. My view on gaming, and certainly hobbyist gaming, is simple: I'm not going to invest my free time in something I don't enjoy. Specifically, what I *do* enjoy in my games are creative problem solving, diplomacy, stealth, and politics. I'm not big on combat. It is honestly, to my opinion, boring as all get out. Roll dice, do math, move pieces, repeat. See if your little man can beat the other little man. I don't see the appeal, but obviously because some of my friends are very interested in the idea I basically tolerate it because we've all agreed to do little bits of what everyone enjoys. The key bit there, however, is the agreed part. We tend to have several different players of several different play-types and so we split up what we're doing and seek an accord - there is a matter of "is it okay if my character does X to the group" or "my character sees this in Y way" that is discussed and sometimes even somewhat hashed out so that no one is FORCED into something they don't enjoy. They are asked, and they have the chance to agree to it even if they don't like the necessary result (because the reasoning is laid out and discussed and there is time to consider and make the scene meaningful), and that makes it far more acceptable to all parties involved.
I like playing support characters because it basically means I generally don't have to directly enter combat. I like bards, clerics, courtiers, diplomats, businessmen, tinkerer types, and so on and so forth. I heal, or sneak, or tinker, or convince people that we're right, or even sometimes just carry the bags. I contribute to the group that way, by solving puzzles and keeping things going, and I enjoy that. Sometimes I *do* have to fight, because that's what others enjoy doing, but generally there's another out and I try my best to take it. I like talking my way out of combat. I consider that far more of a victory than actually beating the snot out of the other guy, and in the game in question we had actually ACHIEVED that victory. Then it was snatched away because someone wanted to force me into combat.
My response to being forced into a situation where I simply have no option *but* to do something is to do the exact opposite of what I "must" do, because there is ALWAYS that other option and I often prefer it to being forced into something else. In this case, there was basically no choice in the game scenario as presented but to fight - so I didn't, and if that meant letting my character die... then so be it. My character is dead. At least I didn't have to fight, because I don't enjoy fighting and I didn't agree to fight. I'd rather kill my character - it's not that tough to build a new one.
Does this have ANYTHING to do with the game system? Not really. About the only complaint I have with that game, mechanics-wise, is that there was no "Hide" Power (short of "Invisible Hunter") so people like me who would rather hide than fight have the option of forcing people to find them in order to combat them. That and I'd like to see something that would give the option of a "dodge" roll against AoE effects. Essentially more Powers for non-combatants would be nice, but it's not really a system problem. It's a "people around the game table" matter. If I ask specifically at the start of the game if the adventure can accommodate my running of a non-combatant, the assumption should be made that I'm not going to enjoy or respond favorably to being forced into combat. I dealt with it the first time and played along, but I honestly don't find "fight to the death" very fun and thus being shoved into the circumstance the second time in a row it's understandable that I would prefer to just dump my character and sit out the fight than once again get dragged into something I don't like doing. YES, my medic could have told some story about being a "secret operative" and then revealed some major combat powers and kicked the crap out of somebody. NO, I didn't want to do that.
It's not that I can't build some ridiculous combat monster. I vaguely suspect that I can combine a Roller with Racer 2, Multi-Action, Strafe, the M201 grenade launcher, and a decent Body score to beat just about anything in the game. I just don't WANT to do that. In terms of one of Untold's chief tenets, I don't find it fun. I would rather find a build that would allow me as a support character to remain a support character than one that would allow me to seamlessly shift back and forth between the things I enjoy and the things I don't.
See my point?
Tue, 2010-08-10 21:58
#4
Medics are not the problem
Manyhattedman, it was not beating upon the medic; I love them. It was the first character I played and last one I would put down. But that is besides the point. If you would like to play a rigid character, then you play it at that cost--rigidity in style is the benefit of a consistent character, and the weighty cost of losing consistently where you did not build. That is why a mindless basher is always "broken" by a mental mage, and a soulless scientist is stripped by a spiritual cleric, and a bodyless support character is shattered by a brutal barbarian. And there are many games tailored to create and craft those roles--and Untold can be all about those character creations, as I have played one many times over--but the goal of Untold was so that people could mold and move with the game if they needed to.
You were pretty bummed about the frustrating losses to your character; we were all surprised to be fighting one another. JF chose to change his klik and go through the transition. You chose to remain in the works as you were. We didn't vilify either of you. But he took the lemons and made lemonade--he wrote a webcomic afterward with his newfound knowledge of Klik.
However, let me ask: If you *don't*, under any circumstance, want to change your character build, then why play Untold? The goal was "Flexible" as much as "Fast" "Furious" "Fun." (NOTE: I DON'T want you to quit! It is only a question to ponder. :) Yes, it streamlines character creation, it makes combat smoother, and smooths the way to more roleplaying. But, when faced with trials beyond the scope of your character, instead of sitting there like in most other games on the sideline without something to do, why wait for the monster to smash you and your party when you can reach for anything possible to save yourself? The only consolation to stoically taking a Wrecker's maul without budging your character deck is to write what you just did, but what's the fun in that (unless *that* is what your character is all about)?
Next time, before allowing the game to commence into an all-out brawl, be clear and outspoken to the GM to say you're not going to stand a chance in such a situation. Otherwise, you will be smothered by an onslaught of enemies geared for war. But, as I said that day and later, I've seen your build rise to the occasion and fend off greater foes than a few summoned monsters. Gearloose used the same powers to wreck the Three Worlds so consistently that when he disappeared we were fastening "seatbelts" both in game and out to try and survive whatever creation he came up with. His support character truly became the nightmare for even the GM's greatest BGs in an adventure, when my frontline fighter could only make scratches in the enemy's side.
Tue, 2010-08-10 22:08
#5
As to Non-combat Powers
I've been pushing for those since I first entered playtesting a LONG time ago. They are there, coming along the works, and even inside the game now (Mountain Scout uses a wonderful one, called chameleon cloak, for one). There are other powers for vit (resilient; shrug it off;), def (tons here: Accelerated Evasion, being one), even boost for overcomes (iron will for the mind)...but there can always be more, and that's what Card Submissions are for, letting the WM know the game needs/players desire to see an expanded support character deck, like "Medics Masterchest" or "Auxiliaries Armory"--I won't complain to see them, because Barnabas needs some options for when I get to pick him back up! :)
Tue, 2010-08-10 22:10
#6
The heart of roleplay
Modern RPGs started when wargame miniatures players were sitting around their board and one of them said, "Well, it makes the most sense in this game that my person should do this, but I think he would do that instead."
Tue, 2010-08-10 22:39
#7
However, let me ask: If you
However, let me ask: If you *don't*, under any circumstance, want to change your character build, then why play Untold?
Where did I say I didn't want to change my character build? I'm all for modifying character builds. I just don't enjoy combat, and so regardless of how my characters shift and develop I'm not going to modify them into fighters because I try to minimize the amount of combat I'm stuck having to deal with. I'd happily try and adopt ways to better avoid fights, save for the fact that not many of them exist and I really don't think "Invisible Hunter" should necessarily be *required* as a catch-all card for not getting beat to smithereens if you're not as fast as a Racer 2 Roller, a Storm's Blessing L'na, or a Leaping 2 Churl. Once more non-lethal equipment comes out, or vehicles to realistically provide quicker travel for "normals," or there are more ways to flat-out avoid antagonists without having to engage them then I will be happy to start switching up and adopting whatever works at the time. If the choice is limited to "you can do whatever you want, as long as you're fighting" - then that's not much of a choice for someone who doesn't like fighting, now is it?
My next plan is to actually build off the Iron Mite card, like M^3 did, and instead of fighting directly I'll simply cling to my Party members so I can take advantage of their combat strengths while not having to actually enter combat myself - I can fulfill the "Cortana" role to everyone elses' "Master Chief," providing healing through Medical Training and various buffs through other Hot Swaps. Of course, however, this STILL requires me to use the "Invisible Hunter" card so I can't just be spotted instantly and picked off at the start of combat; this leads me to think that it's too powerful a card in general, at least right now. I *think* it'll be enough to keep my PC alive without having to build for a fight, though. That's my hope, anyways, since frankly I run enough bloody combat during con games to be completely sick of it outside of conventions; if I *have* to always fight just to survive the game, I think I'll just stick to GMing it.
But, as I said that day and later, I've seen your build rise to the occasion and fend off greater foes than a few summoned monsters. Gearloose used the same powers to wreck the Three Worlds so consistently that when he disappeared we were fastening "seatbelts" both in game and out to try and survive whatever creation he came up with. His support character truly became the nightmare for even the GM's greatest BGs in an adventure, when my frontline fighter could only make scratches in the enemy's side.
By the way, you seem to be under the impression that I have any problem with the 100pt. game we played. I don't. My non-combat character died, because I wanted him to there - he didn't suit the purpose of the game, and frankly nothing happened within the course of those few seconds he was alive to really DEVELOP his character any to allow him to reasonably shift into a more combative persona. It's better to have just let him die, so I could develop a more combat-appropriate character personality instead of carving up and wholly-rewriting a character concept I want to use later simply because he didn't fit the circumstance. Besides, we were play-testing - so mechanical stress-testing was to be expected - and there was a neat twist heroic ending. I'm fine with what happened there.
What bothers me is basically the fact that in two straight days, the second time specifically asking about feasibility so as not to repeat the problem, I wasn't allowed to play a non-combat character even though I don't like combat. It was either fight or die. As I said, I *could* have easily pulled a 180 on my character by throwing her personality and developing character out the window so I could "win" the encounter... but that's not "winning" to me. In fact, that's not even fun to me. I play for the experience of hopping in someone else's head for awhile, not the experience of beating the snot out of stuff, and so turning my naive pacifist medic with a love for animals into a brutal slayer of L'na at the drop of a hat isn't even remotely something I want to do. Changes in personality like that aren't instant and would basically ignore the core of the character being played. I'd have loved to have put forward a way to have her run for cover, but that was proven impossible. I'd have loved to have some "light equipment" way to incapacitate without harming, so I could have given her an effective weapon that fit her character. I honestly would have been ecstatic if we could have just driven off without having deadly combat forced upon us by an opponent we could neither outrun nor dodge. None of that was possible at the time, though, and so frankly the option I actually preferred out of the limited choices I had presented to me was to just put the poor girl out of her misery.
It's a difference in role-playing types, I suppose. You may like the challenge of "beating" something. I like the challenge of *being* something. Once the RP breaks down into rolls and math, the character immersion is lessened - and so is my interest. That's why I avoid fighting, and having fighting thrust upon me doesn't make me want to "win" the fight. It makes me want to play out what would happen if you honestly had shot a grenade at that poor girl, which would be a bloody pile of sad brutal death, so I can get it over with and hopefully move on to more role-playing.
Tue, 2010-08-10 22:50
#8
Stealth Powers
There are some Stealthy Powers that help, but I agree that some sort of Dodge-type Powers would be nice for avoiding AOE Powers. Feel free to submit some! ;D
Tue, 2010-08-10 23:29
#9
There are some Stealthy
There are some Stealthy Powers that help, but I agree that some sort of Dodge-type Powers would be nice for avoiding AOE Powers. Feel free to submit some!
Stealthy helps you remain hidden - Stealthy doesn't help you to re-hide after being discovered. That's a gap where a Power card could fit. As for it and the Dodge, I've basically e-mailed all my card suggestions to M^3 (as he enjoys it a lot and has more time than I do) - so I'll forward those as well to him.
Tue, 2010-08-10 23:50
#10
Some thoughts
Invisible Hunter and Body of Air. Being able to fall back on those might help. (I keep thinking there are some Displacement powers as well, either Flux or tied to the Enigma Engine.)
Wed, 2010-08-11 00:09
#11
Dodge powers
Yeah, Displacement Field works for the Dodge bonus for the klik, and then there's the Evasive and Accelerated Evasion powers for the more mundane people. Phase into Earth and Body of Air (Body of Water is coming soon) to keep the attackers limited. And more are on the way.
Wed, 2010-08-11 00:13
#12
As to the Issues at Hand
We are jousting with words, unintentionally, but we are, MHM. I enjoy being a ton, and beating a challenge is often included in that (otherwise we wouldn't play things with in-built challenges). The "build" wasn't the points; it is your character. I played a medic, remember? Barnabas over and over tormented attackers by being a noncombatant with a gift for subduing enemies by *beating* through *being* a good guy who loved them. They couldn't get around the fact he cared and brought the presence of something more than a sword to the table. You don't have to be a combat intensive player to *win*--and that's all I really will say on the matter.
Wed, 2010-08-11 08:14
#13
True, Benraven, but...
You have to understand a couple of things:
1. Barnabus had access to Power cards that have yet to be released.
2. You were playing Barnabus in my home game, and I play my home game differently than most folks play con games.
To me, there's not a lot of time or a real chance to get invested in a character in a con game. You might get to explore one or two of the character's aspects in a con game, but that's probably about it. However, not everyone might fell that way, so we (as Untold GM's) should be sensitive to that fact and try and bring a game that everyone enjoys.
And while, there's the option to re-create your character in Untold, there's also the option not to do so, I guess; which is just as valid an option.
Wed, 2010-08-11 14:47
#14
I think just about everything
I think just about everything that can (or at least should) be said about this has been said - specifically, I apologize for derailing the original intent of this thread with my counter-point. I think it's been well explored and discussed, so I'm going to say let's call it done and return to the original point of the thread. Sorry for the digression.
Wed, 2010-08-11 15:13
#15
Understood
Aye, those are valid points to weigh in as well, Ashy. Con GMing has a finer finesse to it of "reading" the audience.
Thanks for your input, MHM, and I think you're right; we've taken these things to its furthest edges, but causes me to think we (you and I) should develop more of the support character roles into articles. I'd love to see more coverage and concepts that call them into the limelight--they happen to be my favorite to create. What say you?
Thu, 2010-08-12 02:04
#16
My time is monopolized as-is,
My time is monopolized as-is, I'm afraid - I'm going to be writing 24/7 for the most part for the next week just on my current Untold project alone, and that doesn't include the article I'd *like* to write for Lumberklik's newsletter or the most recent Jaunt I created for CrisisCon but didn't have the chance to write up before it. Add in the editing duties I'm sure will be thrown in my direction and I'm rather swamped. Once (or IF) things clear up I'd love to be able to do that, especially since hopefully Lock & Load will be out by then with some LTL equipment to put on non-combatants. It's just something that's going to need to be somewhat down the road.
Thu, 2010-08-12 10:22
#17
That's Cool
Understand the max-out you have going on. We could do this another time; twas thinking we could tackle the question from two angles: you, as the more experienced GM, could show how non-combatants can fit into a game as NPCs and challenges, along with the challenges that work best for them (to include the Lock and Load powers). I'd tackle an article on how a non-combatant can be played from the player's side of the table and what would be good to consider when building one for various adventures.
Thu, 2010-08-12 19:58
#18
Untold outside combat
I'm definitely intrigued about Untold beyond combat. (I always favored the skills-heavy rogue sneaking away from combat myself.) If anyone wants to tackle the subject for a newsletter article, drop me a line.
Thu, 2010-08-12 20:11
#19
Sent!
Email headin' your way. :)
[Stands and applauds...]
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